Methodology Gmail chat, 8th July 2011

Kyoung: ok

Daniel: any thoughts on the presentation thingy?

Kyoung: i was just looking at it again

you mean the email you sent a few days ago

Daniel: yeah, the syntax thing:

Kyoung: oh wait confusing

i thought you meant the norway

in november

Daniel: the syntax thing is what you’d be hooked into via skype

Kyoung: i haven’t thought about the syntax presentation beyond what we’ve discussed

Daniel: the norway thing was another possible proposal

Kyoung: and to embed more dieas from the angle of my thesis into a philosophy/approach

i feel weird calling it a manifesto

because i don’t think we are so much stating a position as askinga bunch of questions

Daniel: not a manifesto, really. i agree. more like a project methodology

Kyoung: so i mean, i’ve been working on/towards it based on our last conversation

that’s when ati mean


project methodology is perfect

because this is all experiment

art as experiment

Daniel: experiment as art

Kyoung: yes

even better

experiment as art as experiment as art as experiment as

and you?

Daniel: I can hook it into the glitch autonomy thing i presented a little on. my entire thesis is lodged in the middle of that. i.e. error as creation, human intention as a kind of fallacy…

Someone recently pointed me to this concept

the clinamen

a word used by Lucritieus

and taken up by Michel Serres

it’s really cool in regards mutation, glitch – perhaps even collaboration

Kyoung: awesome

i’ll take a look

error as creation definitely

mine not just thesis-wise, but other projects including gltich–point to exaptation

Daniel: yes

Kyoung: very different from appropriation

Daniel: the clinamen might shed some light on that

it’s basically a kind of swerve

Kyoung: appropriation is deliberate

Daniel: the smallest possible deviation

Kyoung: exaptation is more… desperate?


Daniel: desperate?

Kyoung: exaptation

is more desperate than appropriation


another time to go into that

i think this is good though

Daniel: but desperation would imply a necessity and an intent

Kyoung: appropriation implies an intent

Daniel: absolutely

Kyoung: but i think necessity, need doesn’t necessary imply intent

desperation often is muddled

there is the emotion, but… hm a lack of deliberation is how i can describe it now

anyway, i’m working through it

will be more formulated in the next few days


Daniel: i don’t agree with desperation when it comes to adaptation. there is no despair in exaptation. it’s more like a making do. a biological making do

Kyoung: biologically yes

anyway i will get back to you on this

but i think it is an interesting question

desperation versus making do

are they perhaps not the same thing

just one more dramatic than the other

basically, what happens when there is a limit of choice

though biology is not about choice

Daniel: but exaptation is not about choice


Kyoung: yes

Daniel: hm

i think it’s very valid in relation to the ‘making do’ of gltich karaoke.

but i can’t see the desperation

Kyoung: ha

well perhaps you are right

i need to think about this

and maybe desperate is in fact wrong

but i also think

it is not


and it is fed by something less methodical

than hm

Daniel: it’s quite strong, emotionally grounded word. emotion can be non-intentional i suppose

i quite like that

Kyoung: i don’t think gltich is desperate

but i think some of the other things i’m working on can be seen that way

i do think there is a measure of an emotional drive in gltich

that is not desperate

but a need for something else

Daniel: glitch or gltich?

Kyoung: but it is not intentional




Daniel: have you seen those karaoke vids of people singing the smiths? the phil collins art piece?

Kyoung: no

Daniel: one sec

Kyoung: sure

i wonder


if maybe “desperate” is the right word

Daniel: here are some–phil-colli/

Kyoung: anyway, i need to work through this idea

or rather, find the right words to articulate this

Daniel: collins really hones in on the people and the songs

i think we’re trying to highlight two things: firstly, the low tech quality of karaoke, and secondly, how it brings people together

there is a ‘bringing together’ between the smiths song and the people in collins’ videos. a desperation to connect with the songs in some way

Kyoung: yes, but it is more than bringing people together

Daniel: is there something more fundamental in the bringing together of gltich that mediates that desperation?

Kyoung: gltich is not easy, it’s not cool

Daniel: Ha

Kyoung: and yet

yes, i think it mediates something

Daniel: that should be our catchphrase

“GLTi.CH Karaoke: it’s NOT cool

Kyoung: i think your question is in many ways the question we are asking


it’s not slick–it uses youtube and livestream

and skype

these interfaces are ugly and cumbersome

Daniel: it uses people too

people’s desires

Kyoung: and yet, people like it

they love this idea

Daniel: those people who sat and made the karaoke videos we use

Kyoung: i meet people and in ten second of knowing them and telling them about it, they want in


people’s desires

and so, the desperate

Daniel: desire can be desparation

Kyoung: yes, and it doesn’t have to be life or death

and in many ways, because it’s not, people don’t devote their lives to making like “the cure for telepresent karaoke”

so they exadapt



not biologically

but behaviorally

with diy

with what is there

Daniel: i like that, in terms of the glitch aesthetic. the clinamen, the swerve, the glitch is a kind of desire. a desire of the atom, of the cancerous cell, to grow and exist

Kyoung: as opposed to investing bajillions

in r+d for the karaoke cure

it’s more like…


finding the cure for karaoke is like finding the cure for herpes

its pervasive but not life threatening

so there is little money put into finding a cure for it

whereas lots of money goes into cancer

because it is life threatening

also herpes is inked to sex, pleasure, etc.

karaoke also to pleasure, the gluttonous side of our lives

maybe that should be our motto

karaoke is like herpes

Daniel: GLTI.CH Karaoke: It’s NOT cool, it’s more like finding the cure for herpes”



laughing very hard right now

Daniel: No need to mis-quote you when you come up with catchphrases like that

but i see what you mean

Kyoung: misquotes are fun

Daniel: gltich karaoke aids an unspoken, but valuable set of desires

and it does it by making do

Kyoung: yes

you are much more eloquent

and g-rated

Daniel: i like the g-rated thing

like karaoke is a guilty pleasure

it really is

pop music is pure filth

but we love it

we need it just as much as it needs us

to come together through

to aid our existential desires to be together

when we know we never really can be

because we are all, physically alone

Kyoung: shit


yes, it’s true. but depressing.


not really depressing i suppose

but sounds like smiths lyrics.

at any rate, yes i think

Daniel: yes

Kyoung: i think also the mediation that gltich k offers

is important

something about the buffer–the technology serving as a ruse of a focus

so people can feel less sheepish about loving pop filth

it offers a very different experience

than karaoking live with only live people

and the way people behave is very different

Daniel: but, one thing i have learnt, is that you have to really give yourself up to karaoke in order to make it worth while. give yourself to the music, the filth – above cynicism. not many people can do that, really do it

Kyoung: it’s been interesting to see though

how with gltich people are more ready, more willing to do so

who may not otherwise

the live audience is still there

and yet, you forget and are more aware of the “audience ex machina”

and it’s not as bad

or you forget about the audience in the screen

and start talking about them in the third person

anyway, i think we need more small tests to understand the medium better

but yes, you’re right

Daniel: how does this relate to syntax? remembering what they are interested in:

“A dynamic piece of writing which changes as you experience it, in response to data/linguistic information in the real world or online”

We will be using this brief, and anything that comes up as a result of it, as a way to develop a basis for writers and coders to collaborate across platforms.

the second part fits

i think

but the first does not

Kyoung: hold on (or keep on writing) – bathroom break

Daniel: so we have to present on the wider issue, not necessarily GLTI.CH, but what the GLTI.CH methodology is

Kyoung: back


Daniel: how are these ideas useful for bringing writers and coders together?

Kyoung: hm

your thoughts?

Daniel: i think our main strength is a track record of pulling web software off the shelf and applying it to creative, collaborative concepts

Kyoung: also our logging of the experiments

and where they’ve gone wrong/right

Daniel: yes

Kyoung: we can put up some of our chats

i have been bad about uploading my stuff

which is what i was doing today

thinking i was supposed to

talk about glitch

what do you mean?

what does it say about code?

Daniel: yeh

i’m not sure either

Kyoung: haha

Daniel: since neither of us ‘coded’ for the project

but all the tools we are using are mediated by compressed videos

karaoke all compressed and zipped around the place

Kyoung: hm


ithink it’s strange that they group poet/writers separately from coder/artists

what do they mean byt this?

Daniel: that’s an interesting take

how do we push that?

Kyoung: also, doesn’t a piece of writing always change as you experience it?

because you’re experiencing it?

and shit

everything online

IS writing

it’s the whole matric thing

Daniel: of course… likelihood is we shouldn’t get too goldsmiths on their asses

Kyoung: at the end of the day, it is nothing but code



we can do it politely

and playfully

seriously, i think i might have got it

if there is a way to show that all things online is code=writing=>user experience=>youtube=>youtube karaoke=>telepresent youtube karaoke

er go

gltich is THE solution to the brief



it brings together “artist/coders and poet/writers”

by showing there is no real distinction

and that the online world shows this pretty readily

in that on the backend it is all code

on the front end it is visual and aural funtasm

but also it feeds back into language, code, when we write about it

when the social network does its thing

am i going too far now?

Daniel: not necessarily

one second. i’m just looking for something related

Kyoung: ok

Daniel: check this out, first paragraph, top of page 140 :

Kyoung: ok

opening now

Daniel: “Now, since this idea in fact constitutes the invention or the discovery, nature is hidden twice. First, under the cypher. Then under a dexterity, a modesty, a subtlety, which prevents our reading the cypher even from an open book. Nature hides under a hidden cypher. Experimentation, interven­tion, consist in making it appear.”

Kyoung: peeerrffect


Daniel: This rings true for me, when thinking about the code/writing/art paradigm

Kyoung: yes, me too

Daniel: The code hides under the web (interface/social media/software etc)

“Experimentation, interven­tion, consist in making it appear”

Kyoung: yes

also the distinction between code and language

Daniel: so, the glitch – proper spelling – is a visual manifestation of a hardware or software error

Kyoung: that i think in many ways articulates what we were talking about earlier

the emotion versus the not

Daniel: the glitch makes the network, the code, “appear”

Kyoung: yes

the unemotiona


underlying code

Daniel: can GLTI.CH be a similar thing? if we turn that back onto the social, or the desire thing somehoW?

Kyoung: what do you mean?

Daniel: let’s for a minute forget the distinction between glitch and GLTI.CH – when we ‘do’ GLTI.CH Karaoke we are taking part in the glitch

so our methodology is this exposure

manifested in the actual acts of GLTI.CH

revelling in the exposure

code, compressed, lyrics, emotion, spatial, global etc

does that make sense?

My grammar is all glitchy too

Kyoung: yes

i’m following

i think it makes sense rather

what you’re saying

what i think we are doing though

is also showing how the unexposed bits

can be used and added to language

to celebrate the exposed cypher

Daniel: so the excess in the glitch is then fed back into the culture, in our sens that would be karaoke, but how about in other collaborative capacities?

Kyoung: well i think what we are showing is another model for collaboration

so much about collaboration is showing somehappy utopia

branded a lot like north korean communism

gltich is inherently collaborative

not between you and me, but everyone

Daniel: ah. yeah. and collaboration is tricky too

Kyoung: audiences, other organizers, people who make the vids, programmers of youtube, skype, livestream, their free models

we show that look, it’s all collaboration

Daniel: have you seen this, as a model of glitchy collaboration:

Kyoung: and if we acknowledge that and make the project as much about teh fuck-ups as the “successes”–that is where innovation happes

that’s when collabroation works

looking now

collaboration that is just about collaboration never works

i have learned

and so in a way

that also ties back into the idea

you the gltich

of “success” when you are not looking at it

i’m sure there is some proverb about this

the boiling pot one?

though kind of lame

but i think you know what i mean

i am getting good reading form you today

this is quite good

and quite a leap from the article i was reading about pig-nosed turtles

Daniel: it fits dead on with your model of collaboration

Kyoung: which led me to wonder “what about turtle-nosed pigs?”

Daniel: the complicity is unique

turtle pigged noses?

Kyoung: what a GREAT project


i laugh at turtle pigged noses

this project is wow


it’s so simple and ace

Kyoung: yes

Daniel: This all sounds real good, for us and for syntax

I’d be happy to boil down this chat and put it on the website

on the thoughts page or whatever

Kyoung: cool