Methodology Gmail chat, 8th July 2011
Kyoung: ok
Daniel: any thoughts on the presentation thingy?
Kyoung: i was just looking at it again
you mean the email you sent a few days ago
Daniel: yeah, the syntax thing: http://syntax-play.tumblr.com/
Kyoung: oh wait confusing
i thought you meant the norway
in november
Daniel: the syntax thing is what you’d be hooked into via skype
Kyoung: i haven’t thought about the syntax presentation beyond what we’ve discussed
Daniel: the norway thing was another possible proposal
Kyoung: and to embed more dieas from the angle of my thesis into a philosophy/approach
i feel weird calling it a manifesto
because i don’t think we are so much stating a position as askinga bunch of questions
Daniel: not a manifesto, really. i agree. more like a project methodology
Kyoung: so i mean, i’ve been working on/towards it based on our last conversation
that’s when ati mean
YES
project methodology is perfect
because this is all experiment
art as experiment
Daniel: experiment as art
Kyoung: yes
even better
experiment as art as experiment as art as experiment as
and you?
Daniel: I can hook it into the glitch autonomy thing i presented a little on. my entire thesis is lodged in the middle of that. i.e. error as creation, human intention as a kind of fallacy…
Someone recently pointed me to this concept
the clinamen
a word used by Lucritieus
and taken up by Michel Serres
it’s really cool in regards mutation, glitch – perhaps even collaboration
Kyoung: awesome
i’ll take a look
error as creation definitely
mine not just thesis-wise, but other projects including gltich–point to exaptation
Daniel: yes
Kyoung: very different from appropriation
Daniel: the clinamen might shed some light on that
it’s basically a kind of swerve
Kyoung: appropriation is deliberate
Daniel: the smallest possible deviation
Kyoung: exaptation is more… desperate?
nice
Daniel: desperate?
Kyoung: exaptation
is more desperate than appropriation
anyway
another time to go into that
i think this is good though
Daniel: but desperation would imply a necessity and an intent
Kyoung: appropriation implies an intent
Daniel: absolutely
Kyoung: but i think necessity, need doesn’t necessary imply intent
desperation often is muddled
there is the emotion, but… hm a lack of deliberation is how i can describe it now
anyway, i’m working through it
will be more formulated in the next few days
ha
Daniel: i don’t agree with desperation when it comes to adaptation. there is no despair in exaptation. it’s more like a making do. a biological making do
Kyoung: biologically yes
anyway i will get back to you on this
but i think it is an interesting question
desperation versus making do
are they perhaps not the same thing
just one more dramatic than the other
basically, what happens when there is a limit of choice
though biology is not about choice
Daniel: but exaptation is not about choice
yes
Kyoung: yes
Daniel: hm
i think it’s very valid in relation to the ‘making do’ of gltich karaoke.
but i can’t see the desperation
Kyoung: ha
well perhaps you are right
i need to think about this
and maybe desperate is in fact wrong
but i also think
it is not
intentional
and it is fed by something less methodical
than hm
Daniel: it’s quite strong, emotionally grounded word. emotion can be non-intentional i suppose
i quite like that
Kyoung: i don’t think gltich is desperate
but i think some of the other things i’m working on can be seen that way
i do think there is a measure of an emotional drive in gltich
that is not desperate
but a need for something else
Daniel: glitch or gltich?
Kyoung: but it is not intentional
gltich
ha
gk
Daniel: have you seen those karaoke vids of people singing the smiths? the phil collins art piece?
Kyoung: no
Daniel: one sec
Kyoung: sure
i wonder
still
if maybe “desperate” is the right word
Daniel: here are some
http://rhizome.org/editorial//feb//dunya-dinlemiyor-world-wont-listen–phil-colli/
Kyoung: anyway, i need to work through this idea
or rather, find the right words to articulate this
Daniel: collins really hones in on the people and the songs
i think we’re trying to highlight two things: firstly, the low tech quality of karaoke, and secondly, how it brings people together
there is a ‘bringing together’ between the smiths song and the people in collins’ videos. a desperation to connect with the songs in some way
Kyoung: yes, but it is more than bringing people together
Daniel: is there something more fundamental in the bringing together of gltich that mediates that desperation?
Kyoung: gltich is not easy, it’s not cool
Daniel: Ha
Kyoung: and yet
yes, i think it mediates something
Daniel: that should be our catchphrase
“GLTi.CH Karaoke: it’s NOT cool
Kyoung: i think your question is in many ways the question we are asking
haha
it’s not slick–it uses youtube and livestream
and skype
these interfaces are ugly and cumbersome
Daniel: it uses people too
people’s desires
Kyoung: and yet, people like it
they love this idea
Daniel: those people who sat and made the karaoke videos we use
Kyoung: i meet people and in ten second of knowing them and telling them about it, they want in
exactly
people’s desires
and so, the desperate
Daniel: desire can be desparation
Kyoung: yes, and it doesn’t have to be life or death
and in many ways, because it’s not, people don’t devote their lives to making like “the cure for telepresent karaoke”
so they exadapt
exapt
?
not biologically
but behaviorally
with diy
with what is there
Daniel: i like that, in terms of the glitch aesthetic. the clinamen, the swerve, the glitch is a kind of desire. a desire of the atom, of the cancerous cell, to grow and exist
Kyoung: as opposed to investing bajillions
in r+d for the karaoke cure
it’s more like…
herpes
finding the cure for karaoke is like finding the cure for herpes
its pervasive but not life threatening
so there is little money put into finding a cure for it
whereas lots of money goes into cancer
because it is life threatening
also herpes is inked to sex, pleasure, etc.
karaoke also to pleasure, the gluttonous side of our lives
maybe that should be our motto
karaoke is like herpes
Daniel: “GLTI.CH Karaoke: It’s NOT cool, it’s more like finding the cure for herpes”
Kyoung: HAHAHAHAHAH
AHAHAHAHA
laughing very hard right now
Daniel: No need to mis-quote you when you come up with catchphrases like that
but i see what you mean
Kyoung: misquotes are fun
Daniel: gltich karaoke aids an unspoken, but valuable set of desires
and it does it by making do
Kyoung: yes
you are much more eloquent
and g-rated
Daniel: i like the g-rated thing
like karaoke is a guilty pleasure
it really is
pop music is pure filth
but we love it
we need it just as much as it needs us
to come together through
to aid our existential desires to be together
when we know we never really can be
because we are all, physically alone
Kyoung: shit
man
yes, it’s true. but depressing.
haha
not really depressing i suppose
but sounds like smiths lyrics.
at any rate, yes i think
Daniel: yes
Kyoung: i think also the mediation that gltich k offers
is important
something about the buffer–the technology serving as a ruse of a focus
so people can feel less sheepish about loving pop filth
it offers a very different experience
than karaoking live with only live people
and the way people behave is very different
Daniel: but, one thing i have learnt, is that you have to really give yourself up to karaoke in order to make it worth while. give yourself to the music, the filth – above cynicism. not many people can do that, really do it
Kyoung: it’s been interesting to see though
how with gltich people are more ready, more willing to do so
who may not otherwise
the live audience is still there
and yet, you forget and are more aware of the “audience ex machina”
and it’s not as bad
or you forget about the audience in the screen
and start talking about them in the third person
anyway, i think we need more small tests to understand the medium better
but yes, you’re right
Daniel: how does this relate to syntax? remembering what they are interested in:
“A dynamic piece of writing which changes as you experience it, in response to data/linguistic information in the real world or online”
We will be using this brief, and anything that comes up as a result of it, as a way to develop a basis for writers and coders to collaborate across platforms.
the second part fits
i think
but the first does not
Kyoung: hold on (or keep on writing) – bathroom break
Daniel: so we have to present on the wider issue, not necessarily GLTI.CH, but what the GLTI.CH methodology is
Kyoung: back
yes
Daniel: how are these ideas useful for bringing writers and coders together?
Kyoung: hm
your thoughts?
Daniel: i think our main strength is a track record of pulling web software off the shelf and applying it to creative, collaborative concepts
Kyoung: also our logging of the experiments
and where they’ve gone wrong/right
Daniel: yes
Kyoung: we can put up some of our chats
i have been bad about uploading my stuff
which is what i was doing today
thinking i was supposed to
talk about glitch
what do you mean?
what does it say about code?
Daniel: yeh
i’m not sure either
Kyoung: haha
Daniel: since neither of us ‘coded’ for the project
but all the tools we are using are mediated by compressed videos
karaoke all compressed and zipped around the place
Kyoung: hm
yes
ithink it’s strange that they group poet/writers separately from coder/artists
what do they mean byt this?
Daniel: that’s an interesting take
how do we push that?
Kyoung: also, doesn’t a piece of writing always change as you experience it?
because you’re experiencing it?
and shit
everything online
IS writing
it’s the whole matric thing
Daniel: of course… likelihood is we shouldn’t get too goldsmiths on their asses
Kyoung: at the end of the day, it is nothing but code
haha
well
we can do it politely
and playfully
seriously, i think i might have got it
if there is a way to show that all things online is code=writing=>user experience=>youtube=>youtube karaoke=>telepresent youtube karaoke
er go
gltich is THE solution to the brief
inherently
tada
it brings together “artist/coders and poet/writers”
by showing there is no real distinction
and that the online world shows this pretty readily
in that on the backend it is all code
on the front end it is visual and aural funtasm
but also it feeds back into language, code, when we write about it
when the social network does its thing
am i going too far now?
Daniel: not necessarily
one second. i’m just looking for something related
Kyoung: ok
Daniel: check this out, first paragraph, top of page 140 : http://www.scribd.com/doc//The-Birth-of-Physics-Michel-Serres
Kyoung: ok
opening now
Daniel: “Now, since this idea in fact constitutes the invention or the discovery, nature is hidden twice. First, under the cypher. Then under a dexterity, a modesty, a subtlety, which prevents our reading the cypher even from an open book. Nature hides under a hidden cypher. Experimentation, intervention, consist in making it appear.”
Kyoung: peeerrffect
brilliant
Daniel: This rings true for me, when thinking about the code/writing/art paradigm
Kyoung: yes, me too
Daniel: The code hides under the web (interface/social media/software etc)
“Experimentation, intervention, consist in making it appear”
Kyoung: yes
also the distinction between code and language
Daniel: so, the glitch – proper spelling – is a visual manifestation of a hardware or software error
Kyoung: that i think in many ways articulates what we were talking about earlier
the emotion versus the not
Daniel: the glitch makes the network, the code, “appear”
Kyoung: yes
the unemotiona
l
underlying code
Daniel: can GLTI.CH be a similar thing? if we turn that back onto the social, or the desire thing somehoW?
Kyoung: what do you mean?
Daniel: let’s for a minute forget the distinction between glitch and GLTI.CH – when we ‘do’ GLTI.CH Karaoke we are taking part in the glitch
so our methodology is this exposure
manifested in the actual acts of GLTI.CH
revelling in the exposure
code, compressed, lyrics, emotion, spatial, global etc
does that make sense?
My grammar is all glitchy too
Kyoung: yes
i’m following
i think it makes sense rather
what you’re saying
what i think we are doing though
is also showing how the unexposed bits
can be used and added to language
to celebrate the exposed cypher
Daniel: so the excess in the glitch is then fed back into the culture, in our sens that would be karaoke, but how about in other collaborative capacities?
Kyoung: well i think what we are showing is another model for collaboration
so much about collaboration is showing somehappy utopia
branded a lot like north korean communism
gltich is inherently collaborative
not between you and me, but everyone
Daniel: ah. yeah. and collaboration is tricky too
Kyoung: audiences, other organizers, people who make the vids, programmers of youtube, skype, livestream, their free models
we show that look, it’s all collaboration
Daniel: have you seen this, as a model of glitchy collaboration:
http://www.creativereview.co.uk/cr-blog//june/jeremy-hutchinson
Kyoung: and if we acknowledge that and make the project as much about teh fuck-ups as the “successes”–that is where innovation happes
that’s when collabroation works
looking now
collaboration that is just about collaboration never works
i have learned
and so in a way
that also ties back into the idea
you the gltich
of “success” when you are not looking at it
i’m sure there is some proverb about this
the boiling pot one?
though kind of lame
but i think you know what i mean
i am getting good reading form you today
this is quite good
and quite a leap from the article i was reading about pig-nosed turtles
Daniel: it fits dead on with your model of collaboration
Kyoung: which led me to wonder “what about turtle-nosed pigs?”
Daniel: the complicity is unique
turtle pigged noses?
Kyoung: what a GREAT project
HA
i laugh at turtle pigged noses
this project is wow
Daniel:
it’s so simple and ace
Kyoung: yes
Daniel: This all sounds real good, for us and for syntax
I’d be happy to boil down this chat and put it on the website
on the thoughts page or whatever
Kyoung: cool
sure